cadwel park advice

[cbr chris]

Well first time around Cadwell this coming weekend with NG, any advice on gearing and anything else appreciated.
Also lap times for a novice on a standard ZXR400h gents?

thanks in advance.

Chris

[U_h0rnet5]

Hey Im going up there for my 2nd time on the 25th for an Open Pit day with Focused Events. I went there for my first track day and loved it. It is a really good track in my mind great for the ZXR! Very complex and hard to master mind you.
My best time then was 1.57 and my bike was completely stock. All standard settings. Had Pilot Powers on I think!

Might be a bit sad but i did watch some videos from uTube about cadwell (theres a good one of a ZXR400 against some of the big bikes) but at least you can see what it will be like. Helped me out anyway

For times you can ask BallsoutRacing I know he helped me in one of my treads in this category.
I've been looking to join either one of these clubs below they have a list of race times for Cadwell which should give you an idea.

http://www.neweraracing.co.uk/index.htm - New Era Racing (Times tab and theres 2 dates for Cadwell)

http://www.derby-phoenix.co.uk/documents.cfm?id=53 - Derby Phoenix

Hope thats alright for you, let us know how well you get on?

[zimm]

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ace cadwell on a zxr vid.

[U_h0rnet5]

Yea thats great not seen that one. A bike at the end of the vid came singing through that whole pack lol! I've seen one were its just 4 bikes (ZXR400, Millie, GXSR & some 750) I think might not be on there anymore though.

[deviant]

take any advice with a pinch of salt cos I'm slow, not a racer and have only done three 20min sessions round cadwell, but here's some observations anyway...

1) Gearing is probably as low as you can go without losing too much time down Park straight. Mine's geared 14/47 (not tuned at all) and I was hitting about 110 at the end of the straight (revs out at about 130 with that gearing). So you could probably go lower. On the other hand if your bike's tuned at all, or you are less rubbish than me (and hence come out of Charlies faster) you might find you'd hit 130.

Another thought on gearing is that Chris curve goes on for ever and opens up. I didn't have the talent to go through the first bit quick enough to pull a higher gear or the balls to change up a gear while still cranked over so I kept running out of revs.

2) I've been told that on a 400 you don't need to brake at the end of the s/f straight - you can tip into coppice flat out or with a slight roll off. I didn't have the balls to try it - but I'm going back there in August.

3) It's a brilliant circuit (once you get over how narrow it is!).

4) Lap times, no idea.

[Ballsout Racing]

Start finiksh straight, I just knock it down to 5th and trun it, (some people just go flat out in 6th but I never had the bottle and just closed the throttle for a second to get it turned, but that lost me the drive needed to do it in 6th) then keep the throttle pinned as you drive up the hill, get back over the the left and as soon as you see the kirb on the right for Charlies one get it turned as hard as possible, it's difficult because you should have the throttle pinned, most people never go fast enough to use all the width of the track on the exit, doing this you will , but it's all blind so you'll scare yourself sh1tless until you get to know it, or the whole circuit for that matter , the rear tyre will be really trying to let go though so build up to that. Then as you're almost upright on the left between Charlies 1 and 2 knock it down a gear and turn it hard again, I think, just before a change in the Tarmac, then get on the throttle hard to drive out. You'll find youself drifting over to the right as the track bears left, that's fine, then gently turn left to get back to the left side as you go over the brow, the front will go light and if you've got a radical(steep/race) setup you may get a little slapper as you go over the brow. You can brake so much later than you think at the end of Park straight, go down three gears, bang it on it's side and get hard on the throttle, short shift to 4th and bang it on it's side again for Chris curve and immediatley get hard on the throttle again, let it drift out to the left then you can almost straight line it to the top of Goosekneck, as you approach you'll be slightly lent over so a relatively gentle dab on the brakes and let the bike roll in to the right of the Goosekneck, I stay in 4th as I find it difficult to get down to third when cranked over like that(knackered ankle) howver as it's all downhill 4th got good enough drive for me. Carryv loads of speed and hug the kirb on the right, maybe slight throttle maybe none, as you see the kirb for the left bang it left, be carefull though as the left side of the tyres can cool down by then, don't get too close to the appex as there's a bit of a dip/bump that can have you off, drive out to the right and brake where there's a change in the tarmac (haveing siad all that it was resurfaced over the winter so that may have all changed) knock it down to 3rd, you can carry a lot of speed through the left(forgoten name at the mo) can get on power and drift all the way out to the right, again be careful of highsiding there. IIRC there's a white line or break in the tarmac where you can start braking for the chicane knock it down to 2nd, don't need to go all the way over to the left before the chicane as people can nip up the inside there, flip flop through the chicane scraping both sides, hard on gas and up to 3rd, now this is where I had a problem, dropping to 2nd used to get the back hopping around terribly for me, so I tried carying third all the way through the mountain, but if you can get it into 2nd (get suitable gearing to do so if poss) you'll get better drive up the mountain. Start braking for the left at the club circuit road on the right, can brake very late into the positive camber of the corner and hug the left kirb, I'm using a fair amount of throttle to carry plenty of speed, at the end of the kirb bang it right, still on throttle then nail it up the mountain aiming for the middle at the top, as the front lifts ease the throttle lean forward and try to keep weight over the front, then get back hard on the throttle, you'll 'land' almost to the left of the track, take a dab of brake at the cahnge in tarmac for the right at Halls (I thinkit' called)get everything over the kirb, then chop throttle and bang it left, back on throttle, hug the left kirb, pick it up and aim for the next right kirb, as you go over the brow you should be heading foe the left hand side of the track again, brake as late as you dare for the hairpin, you don't neccessarily need to keep it all the way over to the left as people will go up the inside, don't carry brake too late as you'll lose the front near the appex as it dips quite steeply, Oh forgot, as you braking get into 2nd, get it up asap and hard on the throttle, short shift to 3rd then maybe a quick dab on the brakes,(beware of bump as too hard on brakes will really upset the bike as you start turning), I'd get off the brakes early and drive as soon and as much as possible though Barn onto the straight. Hey Presto, back to the start finish straight.

That gave me a low 1.40.1 or something, but the really quick lads will be doing 1.39, 1.38 or ultra quick 1.37s

Anyway, I would suggest below 2 mins is a good start, below 1.50 even better, bearing in mind it's a very challenging circuit to learn You'll love it though, well I do anyway

Edit: I had 14/48 but was reving to 15,500 on a well tuned bike on Park Straight. On a stock bike I would suggest 14/46 to start with

[zimm]

feel knackered after reading that !

[cbr chris]

Shite

Thanx for that BOR, I am running a standard bike and aiming for under 2 minutes to start. Going out on my favourite BT090's to start but have a pair of supercorsa scrubs just incase (not used the pirelli's but everyone rants about them)

Don't quite think I will remember all that but will take time on the mountain section (no flipping )

Will post my times and experinces for you all on Monday (hopefully not from casualty )

Cheers

Chris

[-GQ-]

Ballsoutracing, that was a great rundown of Cadwell. I'm a F400 rookie with Bemsee this year and used your description to get down to a 1:51.1 this weekend. Not spectacular, but better than my times there in April.

Any chance of a similar walkthrough of Snetterton? We're there again this weekend and I've a lot of time to make up...

Cheers

[Ballsout Racing]

That's good for 1st time at Cadwell

OK, so Snetterton

Well, I was going to start by saying that I’ve never seem to go particularly well at Snetterton , although I don’t particularly like the circuit, I don’t dislike it. That could just be because I don’t go very well there (and keep crashing ). When I thought about writing how to ride it, it suddenly occured to me why I perhaps don’t go very well there, and that’s because I don’t have anything like the reference points that I do for Cadwell and probably can’t describe a lap like I could for Cadwell. It seems to be a big balls circuit, some very fast corners and some very heavy braking. I think now I realise that if I did pick better reference points for braking, and working on that, I could go a lot better. I have tried that before, but it didn't seem to work, so just went on feel. I think it's that I find it uninteresting or even boring, I guess I like the technical 'thinkers' type circuits

Anyway, here’s what I can remember of the lap.

Coming onto the start finish straight in second, go up through the gearbox to 5th or if a tailwind maybe 6th. I brake relatively gently for the first double apex corner, down to 4th gear, get it on it’s side and on partial throttle, you can miss the first apex by a couple of feet and bring it back for the second, but that will very much depend on how fast and where you turn in, and as I say, I don’t have any reference pints for that. But, try not to go too far wide as it’s bumpy, I’ve lost the front 2 or 3 times there and they’ve been very fast offs. Anyway, ideally you want to start getting on the power at the first apex and drive to the next before starting to pick it up on full throttle. IIRC I have actually just been full throttle all the way though, in 4th, it shouldn’t let go (if you don’t hit the bumps) If you want to spectate there, stand on the inside bank and you will see air under the tyres over the bumps, that’s with the bikes at full lean, quite frightening when you see that!

Anyway, down to Sear Corner, very very important to get this right as the speed you carry out of there will dictate your speed down the whole of the back straight. I again, have no braking marker, I go down to 2nd, but depending on your gearing/power, 3rd gear may be better. You want to try to get all the braking done uprite, then get the bike on it’s side as fast as possible and get on the power immediately, feed it on all the way through to the apex, start picking the bike up and nail it, there’s lots of run off on the outside exit although very bumpy, you can use it but you need to get it back fairly quickly otherwise you’ll be going down then up a heavy bump, or even on the grass. However, this method can leave the door open for people to outbrake you up the inside, you can carry the brake later towards the apex, (if you want to or are defending) but you will lose speed down the straight. If someone does that to you, let them, it’s really funny just slotting in behind them out of the corner and then just sail back past them again. (whilst sticking a finger up behind your back)

Then tuck everything in as tight as you can, have a cup of tea, not forgetting to go through the gears. At some point in the future you’ll need to start braking, get towards the right hand side of the circuit, some say at the 100 board, if you can great, you’ll then be trailing the brakes through the left of the esses. But it’s about bottle, so I brake at the marshalls hut on the right, you’ll see a tarmac path from the edge of the circuit that you can use to start braking(there’ll be lots of outbraking there). Go down 3 gears, I sometimes find myself back on the throttle, but either way get to and hug the kirb on the left, take another dab on the brakes, down to 2nd gear and chuck it on it’s side for the right, pick it up on the power hard, up to third, again I can’t remember a braking point, but it’s really only a dab, you can even be turning for the bombhole before you dab, but anyway, it’s quite fast, you should try to use all the exit to the left, as you come out of the bombnole be careful on the power as it goes off camber, but you really should be dring hard in 3rd all the way through, hook 4th and depending on your gearing short shift to 5th.

Now Corums, you ‘should’ be able to keep it pinned, maybe a slight feather, you are basically hugging the inside, but it does get tighter if you go in too early and you’ll end up having to pick it up and you’ll end up going wide on the exit to the left, which can approach very fast. Basically, you’re on you’r knee bike lent over as far as you think it will go, on full throttle, if not in the middle, certainly on the exit, it’s big balls. You can actually scare youself badly by drifting very rapidly towards the grass on the exit, you could have your knee firmly on the deck almost to the grass before you pick the bike up.

Now Russells chicane, again I have no braking marker. You can go wide and sweep across on your knee to the right apex, however, people will be diving up the inside, so you cold easily get T boned, so I sort of straight line my braking to the first apex on the right, Oh, down to 2nd gear whilst braking, hug the kirb a little bit and then bang it left, but be carful, it’s high side city, cold left hand side of tyre, but you need to get on it asap to get good speed all the way down the start finish straight.

That’s it, lap done. Anyway, I’m not sure that’s of much use, but it gives you an idea. If you had asked me earlier I could have posted my onboard footage!

Good Luck!

[-GQ-]

Nice one, thanks. I've only been there once (with Bemsee in April this year), and went differently from what you described in a few places. So I'll give it a go and let you know how I get on.

I know what you mean with not getting braking markers - much of it is very featureless. The only marker I remember from April is down Revett... and I can tell you it wasn't the 100m board! Will need to grow some balls before Sat methinks...

[U_h0rnet5]

Hey cheers Ballsout Racing. Used your description for Cadwell was getting low 1.52/53 in the morning session but came off round Chris' Curves overtaking lol! and was getting caught up in traffic!

My mates were gobsmacked at how you go round there when I showed them and the times lol!

Would changing the gearing make much different to speed because that where i was struggling down the straights?

[-GQ-]

UPDATE: Used the Snetterton advice at the Bemsee meeting this weekend and managed to bring my best lap time down from 1:29.2, which I did last time round in April, to 1:23.8. Got some points too - 2 12ths and 2 14ths. Thanks Ballsout.

[deviant]

woohoo. was back at Cadwell on monday for a trackday. didn't make any attempt to time on the day, but I've just found two photos of me in about the same place on consecutive laps. They were taken pretty much spot on two minutes apart.

not bad for a muppet on a road bike

[zimm]

nice one !

really must get round to doing cadwell.

post the pics up then !